sep 13 02:53:46 <xz>	why is #ubuntu such a waste of time?
sep 13 02:53:47 *	shantorn (~shantorn@184-100-226-185.ptld.qwest.net) has joined
sep 13 02:53:48 <xz>	damn
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sep 13 02:55:22 <jim>	if you and them can get along, #debian probably isn't (but, they won't talk to you about ubuntu)
sep 13 02:55:36 <oerheks>	LoLz, xz, why are you so ignorant.. ranting and abusing volunteers
sep 13 02:55:50 <xz>	jim they piss me off so much. Anytime I have some sort of problem with ubuntu they always say whatever I try to do is not supported
sep 13 02:56:24 <Dagmar>	Depends on what you're trying to do
sep 13 02:56:38 <oerheks>	building a ppa for an outdated 12.04 ..
sep 13 02:57:02 <jim>	let's take the thing you tried to do this time... what was it? building a different version of a pkg?
sep 13 02:57:03 <xz>	oerheks: yeah, fine. I work for 100k people company. Asking IT to do anything takes 2-weeks. Then we work with external customers and sometimes work has to be done right away. There are many things that are out of my control. And sometimes upgrading distro unfortunately is. That's just life. I have a box with old ubuntu distro that I need to install one package and they are so short-blinded.
sep 13 02:57:07 <Dagmar>	A good strong electromagnet will help that
sep 13 02:57:50 <jim>	or a gigantic EMP
sep 13 02:58:01 <Dagmar>	Nah, only the one obsolete box needs to be nuked
sep 13 02:58:15 <Dagmar>	At least then some 12-year-old in Romania won't get control of it
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sep 13 03:00:12 <neoncortex>	i find funny how big companies usually have a hard time doing easy things, like upgrading software
sep 13 03:00:14 <xz>	literally every time I try to do something productive on #ubuntu they tell me it's not supported
sep 13 03:00:34 <brandon76>	like what
sep 13 03:00:39 <xz>	last time I needed to build custom kernel
sep 13 03:00:46 <xz>	brandon76: 'not supported sir'
sep 13 03:00:51 <Dagmar>	Trying to continue running a decrepit server is generally going to be "unsupported" for good reason
sep 13 03:01:15 <oerheks>	if it was private, .. but it is for a customer, good job!
sep 13 03:01:20 <Dagmar>	People who know how to compile kernels don't _need_ support for it
sep 13 03:01:34 <xz>	brandon76: I had couple of patches and I wanted to build it 'ubuntu way' instead of hacking
sep 13 03:02:04 <xz>	Dagmar: yeah, I can build and hack it, but I wanted nice out-of-the-box integration if you wish
sep 13 03:02:06 <xz>	Dagmar: whatever
sep 13 03:02:08 <Dagmar>	Okay that's where you're dealing with Ubuntu people for sure
sep 13 03:02:36 <Dagmar>	Debian users wouldn't have a problem saying "Add the patch to this file, genflect and light candles, then run this command."
sep 13 03:02:36 <brandon76>	i guess that's me
sep 13 03:02:46 <brandon76>	since i just switched from mac to ubuntu
sep 13 03:02:56 <xz>	Dagmar: exactly, that's what I'm talking about. ##ubuntu is so useless
sep 13 03:02:58 <brandon76>	and i love it! death to apple
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sep 13 03:03:10 <Dagmar>	Heck I might even google something like that for you just because you're not taking a crap on the package inventories
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sep 13 03:03:52 <brandon76>	and i love pirating tv shows too
sep 13 03:03:53 <Dagmar>	Seriously tho if you have 12 box in service, perhaps it needs to have some kind of "accident"
sep 13 03:04:17 <xz>	Dagmar: no, it's just big corporation and 100s of people where many of them are morons
sep 13 03:04:31 <Dagmar>	Yes, this is why the accident should happen sooner rather than later
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sep 13 03:04:44 <Dagmar>	RIght now there might still be someone around who knows exactly WTF the box is doing and can replace it
sep 13 03:04:45 <xz>	Dagmar: but you cannot save the world, you cannot feed all poor kids in africa. and you cannot upgrade all distros out there
sep 13 03:04:54 <Dagmar>	Every passing year the odds of that get lower and lower and lower
sep 13 03:05:01 <Dagmar>	...and eventually it WILL die
sep 13 03:05:04 <brandon76>	xz but why!
sep 13 03:05:09 <oerheks>	xz creating digital waste is bad
sep 13 03:05:09 <Dagmar>	xz: Actually, I damn well can
sep 13 03:05:15 <brandon76>	the children deserve ubuntu
sep 13 03:05:18 <brandon76>	and wikipedia too
sep 13 03:05:18 <xz>	Dagmar: I know that and I'm going for harm reduction as said many times already
sep 13 03:05:27 <xz>	Dagmar: in the meantime I'm talking to people around about the problem
sep 13 03:05:35 <xz>	Dagmar: but if that changes ever, it will easily take weeks
sep 13 03:05:36 <triceratux>	xz: canonical makes a big deal out of 5yr support for lts. its generous not only in its length but in its predictability. if only youd started your 12.04 ppa around 6mo ago theyd probably be a little more patient
sep 13 03:05:41 <Dagmar>	At my last steady gig the Windows admins were aghast that the unix guys would upgrade 250-300 machines a night and not even stress
sep 13 03:05:57 <strixdio>	lol
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sep 13 03:06:10 <Dagmar>	Around 1000 I might be a little nervous
sep 13 03:06:12 <triceratux>	xz: if your organisation is standardised on ubuntu they should commit to upgrading in a more timely fashion
sep 13 03:06:12 <strixdio>	updates are scary in windows world
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sep 13 03:06:31 <xz>	triceratux: you talk to me like I was CEO at least
sep 13 03:06:35 <xz>	triceratux: I'm an engineer
sep 13 03:06:43 <Dagmar>	I am also pleased to say that when I left that place I was the *last* person who completely understood how mail routing worked
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sep 13 03:06:57 <xz>	triceratux: I'm not IT nor sys-admin, any of that. I'm just an engineer bringing up new boards
sep 13 03:07:03 <Dagmar>	They were being tools and wouldn't let me upgrade it properly
sep 13 03:07:14 <triceratux>	xz: CEOs cant survive without you folks tho. they should listen to you concerning macro policy considerations
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sep 13 03:07:20 <Dagmar>	So... of course the expected transition to fully-Exchange resulted in an _all day mail outage_
sep 13 03:07:38 <Dagmar>	I laughed so hard there were tears
sep 13 03:07:39 <xz>	triceratux: ok, so the problem is I need wget. How do I solve it?
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sep 13 03:08:01 <xz>	triceratux: we have a customer waiting for software. In order to get the software I need wget. What do I do? Tell me
sep 13 03:08:09 <Dagmar>	xz: You can build it from source, or just download that ancient deb
sep 13 03:08:25 <xz>	Dagmar: finally somebody understands how life works, thanks!
sep 13 03:08:40 <Tramp>	or escalate
sep 13 03:08:43 <xz>	Dagmar: I will build it from source and create dpkg
sep 13 03:08:56 <Dagmar>	Depending on the service level, most likely grabbing the deb
sep 13 03:08:56 <oerheks>	there is an official trick to use an old 12.04 repo ... 
sep 13 03:09:13 <xz>	Tramp: look, there is deal for millions of $, as usual. Do you want me to block whole thing because there is no wget?
sep 13 03:09:18 <Dagmar>	"Have a copy of the CD and just scp the file over"
sep 13 03:09:22 <xz>	Tramp: come on
sep 13 03:09:27 <Dagmar>	looool
sep 13 03:09:29 *	oerheks not going to tell
sep 13 03:09:31 <Dagmar>	millions of dollars
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sep 13 03:09:51 <triceratux>	xz: i understand where youre coming from. my gut feeling is upgrade the server. youve already considered building it yourself or backporting. why do you have to use your existing server for this software acquisition ? spin up something newer
sep 13 03:09:54 <xz>	Dagmar: yeah, not my money unfortunately
sep 13 03:09:55 <Tramp>	xz: escalating is not blocking. Escalating is putting a (likely) dilemma on somebody else's table
sep 13 03:09:58 <Dagmar>	They're lying to you
sep 13 03:10:05 <neoncortex>	xz: they put a millon $ business in your hand? xD
sep 13 03:10:07 <Dagmar>	...or they're being _incredibly_ thick
sep 13 03:10:15 <xz>	Tramp: that's what I'm doing in the meantime
sep 13 03:10:19 <Dagmar>	Anyone putting _millions of dollars_ on the line for a box that old is an idiot
sep 13 03:10:35 <xz>	triceratux: we have whole jenkins infrastructure, and that's what it uses
sep 13 03:10:38 <Dagmar>	that's like refusing to put oil in a lambo because it's an added cost
sep 13 03:10:52 <Dagmar>	Keep your resume updated
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sep 13 03:11:09 <Dagmar>	When that thing falls over, and it will, you're going to have a complete and TOTAL loss of production for a week or more
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sep 13 03:11:21 <Dagmar>	That's a business continuity issue right there
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sep 13 03:11:46 <xz>	Dagmar: that's how half of IT companies work
sep 13 03:11:53 <Dagmar>	Only the ones destined for failure
sep 13 03:11:57 <xz>	Dagmar: excluding the cool guys out there like facebook/google
sep 13 03:12:04 <Dagmar>	I've been to a number of shops
sep 13 03:12:15 <dirac1>	phre4k, are you there?
sep 13 03:12:15 <Dagmar>	People who expect to keep their jobs keep their core production equipment updated, period.
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sep 13 03:12:52 <Dagmar>	It's not just Google
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sep 13 03:13:07 <kenrin>	Why update if it works
sep 13 03:13:12 <Dagmar>	There are actually lots of places that have proper change management and disaster recovery plans
sep 13 03:13:34 <Dagmar>	kenrin: Because malfunctions happen, and business continuity planning demands one ask those kinds of questions
sep 13 03:13:36 <triceratux>	step back for a minute & ask yourself: what would kim dotcom do ? http://skypotrol.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/CXOByskUkAADqjh-300x199.jpg
sep 13 03:14:04 <kenrin>	malfunctions?  How does updating help malfunctions.  It would probably increase more bugs
sep 13 03:14:07 <Dagmar>	He'd probably order up a new team to begin building an updated environment
sep 13 03:14:10 <xz>	Dagmar: well, in my current setup dev-ops are not very intelligent people. Actually, believe me or not, the wget problem on that build machine got reported to IT by a sys-admin who initially found out about it. Then IT said they didn't know what to do about it. etc.
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sep 13 03:14:28 <Dagmar>	kenrin: Updating replaces buggy code _before_ it sets your pants on fire
sep 13 03:14:30 <xz>	Dagmar: I got access to the machine and even stupid apt-get wasn't working (404 errors on non-existent links from sources.list)
sep 13 03:14:40 <Dagmar>	...or before some Romanian kid _sets_ them on fire.
sep 13 03:14:45 <xz>	Dagmar: that's the reality of some of us out there, just saying
sep 13 03:14:58 <xz>	Dagmar: anyway, it's not my box and I cannot upgrade distro because it's production and people have their jobs on it
sep 13 03:14:59 <Dagmar>	I know.  I've been paid hooker money for forensic consults on a number of occasions.
sep 13 03:15:07 *	oerheks whispers https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EOLUpgrades
sep 13 03:15:14 <Dagmar>	Most of the time I _dearly_ want to recommend that they just fire everyone and hire real staff
sep 13 03:15:27 <oerheks>	oops..
sep 13 03:15:30 <kenrin>	I must be doing it wrong then.  Any internal server doesn't get updates unless there is some new functionality we need
sep 13 03:15:37 <Dagmar>	...but usually the issue is management was ridiculously cheap and is the cause of nothing being updated and everything running on hardware I wouldn't power up as a joke
sep 13 03:15:38 <xz>	oerheks: I will surely talk to these people about upgrading distro, thanks
sep 13 03:15:54 <oerheks>	xz, that trick gives you full access to the repos
sep 13 03:16:03 <oerheks>	there is 1 server left...
sep 13 03:16:12 <Dagmar>	kenrin: It is _far_ easier to do incremental upgrades than it is to have to refactor and replace entire facilities
sep 13 03:16:18 <xz>	oerheks: I know. But if I upgrade distro right now and whole jenkins goes nuts then they will kill me, you need to understand that part
sep 13 03:16:28 <Dagmar>	If for no other reason because you wind up with staff who have _seen_ the stuff working properly
sep 13 03:16:29 <xz>	oerheks: it's hackec all over the place with proxy script flying everywhere etc.
sep 13 03:16:44 <xz>	oerheks: yes, they are building production code on it
sep 13 03:16:51 <xz>	oerheks: and we have very demanding customer
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sep 13 03:17:38 <Dagmar>	Anyone attepting to make a jump from LTS 12 to something modern next year is going to have a MAJOR problem on their hands if their LOB app uses python
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sep 13 03:18:24 <Dagmar>	You solve these problems one at a time on your own schedule and things are much simpler
sep 13 03:18:24 <xz>	Dagmar: it's not my problem, I'm not dev-ops. I'm just responsible for small bit and I don't want to hack it even more.
sep 13 03:18:48 <xz>	Dagmar: I'm escalating problem with outdated OS and making sure I do my job not harming anybody around